Another huge factor in the loss of artistic identity (and artistic level) is the quality of the hall and how we hear each other on stage. I find that when I cannot hear myself, either due to high sound levels on stage or just because of a dead spot on stage where our stand has been located, my tone quality and intonation immediately take a nosedive. Only some careful scales and etudes the next morning will help - but it's almost never talked about in the context of music education at the conservatory level. I was lucky to have studied with the two past principals of the Philadelphia Orchestra, and they constantly talked about being vigilant to the toll of orchestral playing on one's technique and on solutions to keep one's level up.

As far as the varying schedule factor, it's always very difficult to play a couple weeks of kids concerts and pops followed by an incredibly demanding classical subscription concert - and this is rarely talked about at school, either.

Tim, did you read your cba when you first got your job? I didn't read mine until well into mine. I'm wondering if it would have been effective to have someone go over it with me. Do you think that the new memebers of an orchestra should be guided through the cba with a veteran member?

I did not get my hands on a copy of the cba until I was well into my first year with the Richmond Symphony. I think that it is very helpful for veteran members of an orchestra to guide new musicians. Knowing the organizational history of an orchestra is important. -Tim Judd

Just this past year, with such an influx of new players (three violists, alone) a senior member of our negotiating team led the new members of the orchestra through the cba and some of the history that led to the current form it takes. I hope that it will continue in all future seasons, not just negotiating years.

Sam, I enjoy your holistic view on the art. It is refreshing to read your views, and the questions you pose will resonate in my own head for a while.

My situation was an interesting one. I won my position about two weeks before graduating with a Performance Diploma from the Peabody Conservatory. I came back to Baltimore from Portland, Oregon and attended my graduation and then went to Tanglewood Music Center for my second summer. In between, I "negotiated" my contract, which was slightly unusual in that I was offered the position of Acting principal for the first year due to the unexpected resignation of the Principal violist just before the audition. I had NO idea of what to do in terms of negotiating a contract, and talked to a couple of orchestral musicians, including the BSO's principal violist Richard Field for some general advice. I wish there had been a program like that at Eastman at Peabody! While at Tanglewood, I was sent parts to bow for the upcoming season and even advised on when we would need subs and extras and just did my best. I was 25 at the time this all was going down.

What were my worries going in to the audition? I was wondering how I was going to pay of my maxed out credit card from the three previous auditions that had ended in no position, and playing well enough to at least make the finals this time.

What would the job be like? I had no idea of the amount of music that a professional goes through in a week, especially in my orchestra in my first few years, where we often played three or four folders a week with rehearsals staggered all over the place - it was a shock to my system which only the quick pace of Tanglewood rehearsals gave me some advance training. I thought that the orchestra would be one big, happy family, and in some respects I was right, but it's also a normal, somewhat dysfuctional family, and it has a history and skeletons in the closet, so to speak, and you have to tread carefully at first to know where those landmines are hidden.

I think that today's orchestral musicians are smarter about evangelizing their roles in society and the role that the orchestra plays in their communities. We know that we are cultural ambassadors not so much to the rest of the world, but to our own small part of it. The statement "think globally, act locally" really applies to us now more than ever. I think that we're also learning, in the organized labor sense, that what is good for the goose is good for the gander - that the orchestra, both players and management, is (or should be) an organic whole, whose health overall really affects each part's quality of life.

First, I would like to thank Drew for asking me to "sit" on this panel.

It is very interesting, and encouraging, to see that there are others who share the same opinion, specifically about the changing "role" of the orchestral musician and the benefit of "reality-based" education.

My expectations for my first job were high. Judging from the audition excerpt list, I assumed that the orchestra would play large works: Don Juan, Prokofiev 5, Schumann 3, Stravinsky Firebird etc. But when I ended my first season, I had experienced works that were mostly classical and baroque. Also, a number of "concerts" were slapped together for kiddie, or pops. Lack of rehearsals on really difficult but popular pieces really made for an embarrassing product. Our school concerts also misrepresent the orchestra as we divide into chamber groups. The kids never get to see the full symphony unless they actually come to a real concert. It has been a disappointing several years and I wish I had known more about the orchestra before I signed the contract and invested my life to this area.

I tend to agree with elizabeth miller. I too got suckered into this profession despite warnings from my teacher. The "glamor" of being in a symphony quickly dies as you are no longer an individual. You are a tool, a cog, and your ideas, how great, or helpful they might be, are ignored at every turn. Plus, the welcome by the veteran members is not always as warm as it should be. Not that there needs to be a red carpet, but a little support during the tenure process would be helpful and professional.

First off, thanks to everyone at Polyphonic for creating a well informed forum for the business of classical music. The early returns have been promising and thought provoking.

The current discussion "Great Expectations" seems to bring back very well worn questions - questions which are nonetheless still worth exploring:

1. Is the job of a music school to help instrumentalists get a job, or to be a well educated, versatile musician? Are these the same thing? If not, how are they different?
2. Is increased focus on getting an orchestral job good for the business of music, or detrimental?
3. If a music school altered its curriculum to better prepare instrumentalists for auditions, what does that do for students who might be very talented, but not entirely sure they want an orchestral job? Would we be shielding them from other opportunities? (Perhaps it would be interesting to hear from people who actively pursued an orchestral job, but have not yet been entirely successful in that pursuit.)

There is no question that schools have a difficult time adequately preparing musicians for the "real world," but we have to remember they have many obligations they must meet as an institution of higher learning, more so if the school is affiliated with a university with a core curriculum. Add to that the labor and contract issues, it becomes nearly overwhelming. If we alter the educational focus to a very narrow scope, then we have changed the institutions into trade schools - which may or may not be a bad thing, depending on ones point of view.

Truly it is an extremely daunting task to decide how best to prepare musicians for post college life. It is much easier for those of us already working in some capacity to play Monday morning quarterback, but what do we do for those just starting out? At what point in their lives do we commit them to the more intensive path of orchestral audition preparation? And the million dollar question (which Drew has already asked) - how much does the audition process prepare your for the realities of orchestral/musical life?